Three different cover types exist: The one shown above, the Escher type insert (in blue or pink) or just stamped. The main label variations are: Dittolino logo, 1/2, blank, and later smoking pig and ‘large A’ labels (I have never seen the last two variations but flodboots lists them).
In addition, the records were pressed on clear and white PVC. I believe that these copies, including the smoking pig and ‘large A’ labels were produced significantly later by some other enterprising outfit than the original Dittolino guys but would be happy to be proven wrong in this.
Above: Matrix markings for sides 1 and 4.
The stamped copies may in fact have been the first pressing:
Live at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium
Santa Monica, California
Friday October 23, 1970
1st set (bold songs selected for the vinyl bootleg master)
01. Astronomy Domine
02. Green Is The Colour -> Careful With That Axe, Eugene
03. Fat Old Sun
04. Set The Controls for the Heart of the Sun
06. A Saucerful of Secrets
07. Atom Heart Mother (with orchestra and choir)
08. Interstellar Overdrive (not recorded by Dub)
01. Atom Heart Mother [25:04] 02. Fat Old Sun [11:23] 03. Cymbaline [9:20] 04. A Saucerful Of Secrets [20:26]
“The 1st Pink Floyd bootleg, according to a 1971 article in Circus magazine, was simply called “LIVE” which was recorded in Santa Monica on 10/23/70. The record was in a plain white cover and stamped. I believe this may have been a Dittolino release.”
I wonder if this was the edition that mentioned it – October 1971:
These are the first two pages of the article written by Richard Meltzer. I enlarged it to 150% and you can read every word but there is no mention of an underground Pink Floyd record, However, this is not the complete article, so perhaps it’s mentioned on the next page. Does anyone have the complete article?
After a lengthy investigation, I have to concede that Dittolino Discs may have been the first bootlegger to release the first ever Pink Floyd vinyl bootleg as the TMOQ version seems to have been pressed significantly later, perhaps in 1973. A couple of experts have even given the Dittolino version the audio quality edge over the TMOQ version:
“My instinct listening to it is that Cymbaline is a better transfer to vinyl possibly because a higher quality unit was used but they are a close enough match to conclude that the source tape / reel is very likely to be the same or no more than a generation apart. If they are a different generation my vote would go to Cymbaline being lower.”
Doinker: “Now that’s very funny you say that. To my ears, [the Dittolino Disc version, here called "LDD"] has better frequency response. But, that’s me.”
Here are the facts:
- If the Circus article from the October 1971 Circus issue is indeed the one, and they were referring to the Dittolino Discs version, that bootleg must have come out by August 1971 at the latest.
- Both the Dittolino Discs and the TMOQ release contain the same recording from the same source tape, as does the 1980’s version titled Cymbaline
The copy shown above, on black PVC, sold for 126 GBP in late 2010.
An in depth discussion regarding the sources for this concert can be found on the Yeeshkul! Pink Floyd forum (registration required).
“According to recent threads on this website, the vinyl source (now sources) for this date are a different recorder than the Dub Taylor recording. I was asked to transfer the 2 LP TMOQ set “Cymbaline” at 24/96 as it’s understood to be different. Upon research, I found this to be the same recorder as an earlier TMOQ release “Pink Floyd Live Dittolino Discs”. I expected the two pressings to be identical, even though they are from different plates. They aren’t. There are different start points in the source tape used for each pressing, necessitating syncing and combining the two sets for maximum listening time.
“Cymbaline” should be considered complete enough to warrant torrenting on its own, but “LDD” is most certainly not. I cannot guarantee the speed runs totally correct through all four sides. “LDD” also still has some technical flaws which need polishing. The two sources need synching anyway to make them run at the same speed.
What I hope for is this: I would like someone else to combine these two albums and to make any further corrections as necessary. It’s possible known gaps within the existing vinyl transfer will now be solved.
Setlist (run times approximate)
“Cymbaline” TMOQ 2804
Atom Heart Mother S1 13:31
Atom Heart Mother S2 13:27
Fat Old Sun 12:19
A Saucerful Of Secrets 21:17
“Pink Floyd Live Dittolino Discs” D2
Atom Heart Mother S1 13:27
Atom Heart Mother S2 13:33
Fat Old Sun 12:15
A Saucerful Of Secrets 21:36
Technical notes: “Cymbaline” ran different speeds at every cut. This means AHM1 and AHM2 were different from each other, and that FOS and Cymbaline were different even though coming from the same record side. This was a very difficult record to pitch correctly, and I’m not confident it’s at 100%, you’ll have to tell me. It was pitched both on the turntable, then digitally by very small increments. “LDD” ran constantly at the wrong speed and is probably also correct, but I believe there’s a change in pitch somewhere within ASOS. “LDD” unfortunately was purchased well-used, and the outer edges of all four sides are feathered. Most of that has been corrected. To me, “LDD” may have a better sound quality. There’s some static on both sources when the volume is increased at the beginning of each side. Since it is on both sources, I would have to say it’s in the unit used for transferring the tape to vinyl, and that the same unit was used on both occasions.”
From one of the threads that started the discussion:
“Recently I discovered a CDR I made from a LP I acquired behind the ‘University Center’ of USF during late 1983. I no longer have the LP which is too bad since it sounds like it would have been worth a high quality transfer. This LP is the alternate recorder for this date and after a quick comparison to the ‘Creatures Of The Deep’ alternate recorder [Dub's master tape], I decided that some people may prefer this version. [...] The LP was one of the two versions identified in the links below. I recall the ‘Full Tilt’ Label but also the ‘GLC’ label. Mine had a beige colored insert, but no colored vinyl.
Cymbaline (2804 A/D) http://floydboots.com/pages/c16.html
Cymbaline (LXXXIV SERIES #16) http://floydboots.com/pages/c17.html
01. [12:14] Fat Old Sun
02. [10:09] Cymbaline
03. [21:34] A Saucerful Of Secrets
04. [26:49] Atom Heart Mother
|| [70:48] Total”
“Well, that recording is by Dub Taylor, one of the partners who ran the TMOQ boot label, and this “Cymbaline” boot is from TMOQ, so I assumed they were the same. I’ll have to give it a closer listen now. Even if the same, a clean LP transferred from a young master tape may very well be sonically superior!
edit 2010-04-26: It’s the same recorder. Same cut due to tape flip at about 22:20 into AHM. The Dub Taylor tape sounds waaaayyy better to me.
edit 2010-05-08: Carefully listened to “Fat Old Sun” and “Cymbaline” from both; I agree they are indeed two different recorders. ” [http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showthread.php?19740-Pink-Floyd-1970-10-23-Santa-Monica-Cymbaline-LP-**Alternate_Recorder-2**/page4]
- While Dub recorded this concert as well and it remained in his collection until he sold it in the late 1980’s, it seems he never used it to manufacture a bootleg as all vinyl releases contain a different source tape. floydboots.com is therefore correct that only Ken (and Dittolino) released this concert and this explains why it is absent from Dub’s catalog.
- floydboots.com states: “FIRST RELEASED ON ‘FARM PIG’ TRADE MARK OF QUALITY LABEL ON VARIOUS COLOURED VINYL INITIALLY WITH LARGE 1,2,3,4 ON LABELS AND SUBSEQUENTLY WITH FARM PIG LOGO ON LABEL (VERY FEW PRESSINGS EXIST WITH THE REGULAR STAMPED (PINK FLOYD “LIVE”) AND STICKERED TMOQ FARM PIG COVER).”
I am not convinced if the issues with the large 1/2/3/4 labels were not in fact a copy done significantly later (‘cloudy/milky’ colored vinyl found in conjunction with such labels seems to point to a later release date). The only image of such a release I found was clearly described as a newer copy/”fake” bootleg (of Italian origin, limited to 100):
In fact, if you look here: http://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php?searchtext=pink+floyd+live+tmoq&x=0&y=0 most of these are fakes sometimes even correctly called as such: “Reissue” and “test pressings” – bootleggers rarely did test pressings, advance stamped covers perhaps on occasion – produced apparently in 2012 judging by the auction dates and influx of fakes. It looks as if the same seller had started out not disclosing the fact that these were fakes and made some good money that way (see the telltale terracotta floor tiles in the background of each auction image).
TMOQ originals (sold before 2012) seem to have been pressed on red and black PVC:
2 x red PVC, sold for $560 in 2003. Seller stated he’s had it for 20+ years, it’s probably been 25 – 30 at that time, already.
Black PVC, apparently originally sold for less than $7 if I read that sticker correctly. Sold for $126 in 2009.
Only one of the discs – on red PVC – remained, when this original was sold on eBay in 2010 together with Omayad
[If anyone has any other better quality images for the one of the TMOQ 2840 versions (even if fake), please leave a comment.]
Unfortunately, http://recordcollectorsguild.org/wiki2/index.php/Trademark_Of_Quality does not list this release on either their TMOQ (Dub) or TMOQ2 (Ken) page and this makes it hard to pinpoint the exact release date
The TMOQ original will be looked at in more detail when I present the TMOQ releases.
Any contributions highly welcome.