(PINK) FLOYD ‘LIVE’ – Dittolino Discs – The first Pink Floyd Bootleg – also featuring: TMOQ “LIVE” (PF2804) and ‘CYMBALINE’

PINK FLOYD LIVE XL

Three different cover types exist: The one shown above, the Escher type insert (in blue or pink) or just stamped. The main label variations are: Dittolino logo, 1/2, blank, and later smoking pig and ‘large A’ labels (I have never seen the last two variations but flodboots lists them).

In addition, the records were pressed on clear and white PVC. I believe that these copies, including the smoking pig and ‘large A’ labels were produced significantly later by some other enterprising outfit than the original Dittolino guys but would be happy to be proven wrong in this.

Pink Floyd Live 4

Pink Floyd Live 5

Pink Floyd Live clear

Pink Floyd Live white

***

Pink Floyd EscherPink Floyd Escher coverPink Floyd D-2 matrixPink Floyd D-2 matrix 2

Above: Matrix markings for sides 1 and 4.

***

The stamped copies may in fact have been the first pressing:

Pink Floyd Live stamp 3

Pink Floyd Live stamp

****

pf1970-10-23tk

PINK FLOYD
Live at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium
Santa Monica, California
Friday October 23, 1970

1st set (bold songs selected for the vinyl bootleg master)
01. Astronomy Domine
02. Green Is The Colour -> Careful With That Axe, Eugene
03. Fat Old Sun
04. Set The Controls for the Heart of the Sun
05. Cymbaline
06. A Saucerful of Secrets
2nd set
07. Atom Heart Mother (with orchestra and choir)
Encore
08. Interstellar Overdrive (not recorded by Dub)

01. Atom Heart Mother [25:04] 02. Fat Old Sun [11:23] 03. Cymbaline [9:20] 04. A Saucerful Of Secrets [20:26]

“The 1st Pink Floyd bootleg, according to a 1971 article in Circus magazine, was simply called “LIVE” which was recorded in Santa Monica on 10/23/70. The record was in a plain white cover and stamped. I believe this may have been a Dittolino release.”

I wonder if this was the edition that mentioned it – October 1971:

Circus mag PF

Circus PF 71 article

These are the first two pages of the article written by Richard Meltzer. I enlarged it to 150% and you can read every word but there is no mention of an underground Pink Floyd record, However, this is not the complete article, so perhaps it’s mentioned on the next page. Does anyone have the complete article?

****

After a lengthy investigation, I have to concede that Dittolino Discs may have been the first bootlegger to release the first ever Pink Floyd vinyl bootleg as the TMOQ version seems to have been pressed significantly later, perhaps in 1973. A couple of experts have even given the Dittolino version the audio quality edge over the TMOQ version:

“My instinct listening to it is that Cymbaline is a better transfer to vinyl possibly because a higher quality unit was used but they are a close enough match to conclude that the source tape / reel is very likely to be the same or no more than a generation apart. If they are a different generation my vote would go to Cymbaline being lower.”
Doinker: “Now that’s very funny you say that. To my ears, [the Dittolino Disc version, here called “LDD”] has better frequency response. But, that’s me.”

***

Here are the facts:

– If the Circus article from the October 1971 Circus issue is indeed the one, and they were referring to the Dittolino Discs version, that bootleg must have come out by August 1971 at the latest.

– Both the Dittolino Discs and the TMOQ release contain the same recording from the same source tape, as does the 1980’s version titled Cymbaline

Pink Floyd 2804 tan

The copy shown above, on black PVC, sold for 126 GBP in late 2010.

Pink Floyd Cymbaline re

An in depth discussion regarding the sources for this concert can be found on the Yeeshkul! Pink Floyd forum (registration required).

****

“According to recent threads on this website, the vinyl source (now sources) for this date are a different recorder than the Dub Taylor recording. I was asked to transfer the 2 LP TMOQ set “Cymbaline” at 24/96 as it’s understood to be different. Upon research, I found this to be the same recorder as an earlier TMOQ release “Pink Floyd Live Dittolino Discs”. I expected the two pressings to be identical, even though they are from different plates. They aren’t. There are different start points in the source tape used for each pressing, necessitating syncing and combining the two sets for maximum listening time.

“Cymbaline” should be considered complete enough to warrant torrenting on its own, but “LDD” is most certainly not. I cannot guarantee the speed runs totally correct through all four sides. “LDD” also still has some technical flaws which need polishing. The two sources need synching anyway to make them run at the same speed.

What I hope for is this: I would like someone else to combine these two albums and to make any further corrections as necessary. It’s possible known gaps within the existing vinyl transfer will now be solved.

Setlist (run times approximate)

“Cymbaline” TMOQ 2804

Atom Heart Mother S1 13:31
Atom Heart Mother S2 13:27
Fat Old Sun 12:19
Cymbaline 10:12
A Saucerful Of Secrets 21:17

“Pink Floyd Live Dittolino Discs” D2

Atom Heart Mother S1 13:27
Atom Heart Mother S2 13:33
Fat Old Sun 12:15
Cymbaline 10:11
A Saucerful Of Secrets 21:36

Technical notes: “Cymbaline” ran different speeds at every cut. This means AHM1 and AHM2 were different from each other, and that FOS and Cymbaline were different even though coming from the same record side. This was a very difficult record to pitch correctly, and I’m not confident it’s at 100%, you’ll have to tell me. It was pitched both on the turntable, then digitally by very small increments. “LDD” ran constantly at the wrong speed and is probably also correct, but I believe there’s a change in pitch somewhere within ASOS. “LDD” unfortunately was purchased well-used, and the outer edges of all four sides are feathered. Most of that has been corrected. To me, “LDD” may have a better sound quality. There’s some static on both sources when the volume is increased at the beginning of each side. Since it is on both sources, I would have to say it’s in the unit used for transferring the tape to vinyl, and that the same unit was used on both occasions.”

From one of the threads that started the discussion:

“Recently I discovered a CDR I made from a LP I acquired behind the ‘University Center’ of USF during late 1983. I no longer have the LP which is too bad since it sounds like it would have been worth a high quality transfer. This LP is the alternate recorder for this date and after a quick comparison to the ‘Creatures Of The Deep’ alternate recorder [Dub’s master tape], I decided that some people may prefer this version. […] The LP was one of the two versions identified in the links below. I recall the ‘Full Tilt’ Label but also the ‘GLC’ label. Mine had a beige colored insert, but no colored vinyl.

Cymbaline (2804 A/D) http://floydboots.com/pages/c16.html
Cymbaline (LXXXIV SERIES #16) http://floydboots.com/pages/c17.html

‘LPP Revision’
01. [12:14] Fat Old Sun
02. [10:09] Cymbaline
03. [21:34] A Saucerful Of Secrets
04. [26:49] Atom Heart Mother

|| [70:48] Total”

“Well, that recording is by Dub Taylor, one of the partners who ran the TMOQ boot label, and this “Cymbaline” boot is from TMOQ, so I assumed they were the same. I’ll have to give it a closer listen now. Even if the same, a clean LP transferred from a young master tape may very well be sonically superior!

edit 2010-04-26: It’s the same recorder. Same cut due to tape flip at about 22:20 into AHM. The Dub Taylor tape sounds waaaayyy better to me.

edit 2010-05-08: Carefully listened to “Fat Old Sun” and “Cymbaline” from both; I agree they are indeed two different recorders. ” [http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showthread.php?19740-Pink-Floyd-1970-10-23-Santa-Monica-Cymbaline-LP-**Alternate_Recorder-2**/page4]

****

– While Dub recorded this concert as well and it remained in his collection until he sold it in the late 1980’s, it seems he never used it to manufacture a bootleg as all vinyl releases contain a different source tape. floydboots.com is therefore correct that only Ken (and Dittolino) released this concert and this explains why it is absent from Dub’s catalog.

– floydboots.com states: “FIRST RELEASED ON ‘FARM PIG’ TRADE MARK OF QUALITY LABEL ON VARIOUS COLOURED VINYL INITIALLY WITH LARGE 1,2,3,4 ON LABELS AND SUBSEQUENTLY WITH FARM PIG LOGO ON LABEL (VERY FEW PRESSINGS EXIST WITH THE REGULAR STAMPED (PINK FLOYD “LIVE”) AND STICKERED TMOQ FARM PIG COVER).”

I am not convinced if the issues with the large 1/2/3/4 labels were not in fact a copy done significantly later (‘cloudy/milky’ colored vinyl found in conjunction with such labels seems to point to a later release date). The only image of such a release I found was clearly described as a newer copy/”fake” bootleg (of Italian origin, limited to 100):

Pink Floyd 2804 copy

 

In fact, if you look here: http://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php?searchtext=pink+floyd+live+tmoq&x=0&y=0      most of these are fakes sometimes even correctly called as such: “Reissue” and “test pressings” – bootleggers rarely did test pressings, advance stamped covers perhaps on occasion – produced apparently in 2012 judging by the auction dates and influx of fakes. It looks as if the same seller had started out not disclosing the fact that these were fakes and made some good money that way (see the telltale terracotta floor tiles in the background of each auction image).

TMOQ originals (sold before 2012) seem to have been pressed on red and black PVC:

PF 2804 2003

2 x red PVC, sold for $560 in 2003. Seller stated he’s had it for 20+ years, it’s probably been 25 – 30 at that time, already.

***

 

PF 2804 2009

Black PVC, apparently originally sold for less than $7 if I read that sticker correctly. Sold for $126 in 2009.

***

PF 2804 2010

Only one of the discs – on red PVC – remained, when this original was sold on eBay in 2010 together with Omayad

***

 

[If anyone has any other better quality images for the one of the TMOQ 2840 versions (even if fake), please leave a comment.]

Unfortunately, http://recordcollectorsguild.org/wiki2/index.php/Trademark_Of_Quality does not list this release on either their TMOQ (Dub) or TMOQ2 (Ken) page and this makes it hard to pinpoint the exact release date

 

****

The TMOQ original will be looked at in more detail when I present the TMOQ releases.

Any contributions highly welcome.

Advertisements
18 comments
  1. John said:

    the Escher typed cover..do you really think it’s and original Dittolino?…..the same with the Daddy Pig logo label under the ‘original’ Dittolino insert…an original Dittolino or a piece of work from TMQ?
    That yellow underground sticker…what a fab found…!!
    Great post again mate…

    • You need to read my posts more closely 😉 … “I believe that these copies, including the smoking pig and ‘large A’ labels were produced significantly later by some other enterprising outfit than the original Dittolino guys but would be happy to be proven wrong in this.” That was about the smoking pig + Dittolino insert copy you asked about. I have no idea who made it. It sure is not common enough to say that Ken produced it.
      Regarding the Escher cover, I’m 50/50 on those split between orig. Dittolino job / someone else did those. Quite hard to say if you were not around in ’71, eh?

  2. I found some notes I had made earlier and apparently there are two different source tapes after all, so will have to update this post tomorrow. [Update: I went through several long and winding threads on yeeshkul! from 2010. After wading through the confusion, it seems that the Dub Taylor master tape and the material issued as vinyl bootlegs (Cymbaline circa 1984 and previously as Live PF2804 on TMOQ and LIVE on Dittolino Discs) comes from two different recorders, while the vinyl versions are all identical, and my statement from my post that Dittolino & TMOQ versions are from the source still holds up. This is all quite complicated. This has been confirmed by Doinker who compared both issues:

    “According to recent threads on this website, the vinyl source (now sources) for this date are a different recorder than the Dub Taylor recording. I was asked to transfer the 2 LP TMOQ set “Cymbaline” at 24/96 as it’s understood to be different. Upon research, I found this to be the same recorder as an earlier TMOQ release “Pink Floyd Live Dittolino Discs”. I expected the two pressings to be identical, even though they are from different plates. They aren’t. There are different start points in the source tape used for each pressing, necessitating syncing and combining the two sets for maximum listening time.

    “Cymbaline” should be considered complete enough to warrant torrenting on its own, but “LDD” is most certainly not. I cannot guarantee the speed runs totally correct through all four sides. “LDD” also still has some technical flaws which need polishing. The two sources need synching anyway to make them run at the same speed.

    What I hope for is this: I would like someone else to combine these two albums and to make any further corrections as necessary. It’s possible known gaps within the existing vinyl transfer will now be solved.

    I can answer any questions you might have via PM.

    Setlist (run times approximate)

    “Cymbaline” TMOQ 2804

    Atom Heart Mother S1 13:31
    Atom Heart Mother S2 13:27
    Fat Old Sun 12:19
    Cymbaline 10:12
    A Saucerful Of Secrets 21:17

    “Pink Floyd Live Dittolino Discs” D2

    Atom Heart Mother S1 13:27
    Atom Heart Mother S2 13:33
    Fat Old Sun 12:15
    Cymbaline 10:11
    A Saucerful Of Secrets 21:36

    Technical notes: “Cymbaline” ran different speeds at every cut. This means AHM1 and AHM2 were different from each other, and that FOS and Cymbaline were different even though coming from the same record side. This was a very difficult record to pitch correctly, and I’m not confident it’s at 100%, you’ll have to tell me. It was pitched both on the turntable, then digitally by very small increments. “LDD” ran constantly at the wrong speed and is probably also correct, but I believe there’s a change in pitch somewhere within ASOS. “LDD” unfortunately was purchased well-used, and the outer edges of all four sides are feathered. Most of that has been corrected. To me, “LDD” may have a better sound quality. There’s some static on both sources when the volume is increased at the beginning of each side. Since it is on both sources, I would have to say it’s in the unit used for transferring the tape to vinyl, and that the same unit was used on both occasions.”

    From one of the threads that started the discussion:

    “Recently I discovered a CDR I made from a LP I acquired behind the ‘University Center’ of USF during late 1983. I no longer have the LP which is too bad since it sounds like it would have been worth a high quality transfer. This LP is the alternate recorder for this date and after a quick comparison to the ‘Creatures Of The Deep’ alternate recorder, I decided that some people may prefer this version. […] The LP was one of the two versions identified in the links below. I recall the ‘Full Tilt’ Label but also the ‘GLC’ label. Mine had a biege colored insert, but no colored vinyl.

    Cymbaline (2804 A/D) http://floydboots.com/pages/c16.html
    Cymbaline (LXXXIV SERIES #16) http://floydboots.com/pages/c17.html

    I’m including a raw version extracted directly from the CDR and a ‘LPP Revision’ version.

    Raw version extracted from CDR
    01. [66:20]

    ‘LPP Revision’
    01. [12:14] Fat Old Sun
    02. [10:09] Cymbaline
    03. [21:34] A Saucerful Of Secrets
    04. [26:49] Atom Heart Mother

    || [70:48] Total”

    “Well, that recording is by Dub Taylor, one of the partners who ran the TMOQ boot label, and this “Cymbaline” boot is from TMOQ, so I assumed they were the same. I’ll have to give it a closer listen now. Even if the same, a clean LP transferred from a young master tape may very well be sonically superior!

    edit 2010-04-26: It’s the same recorder. Same cut due to tape flip at about 22:20 into AHM. The Dub Taylor tape sounds waaaayyy better to me.

    edit 2010-05-08: Carefully listened to “Fat Old Sun” and “Cymbaline” from both; I agree they are indeed two different recorders. ” [http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showthread.php?19740-Pink-Floyd-1970-10-23-Santa-Monica-Cymbaline-LP-**Alternate_Recorder-2**/page4]

    ****

    I have also contacted the seller of an October ’71 Cicrus magazine on eBay regarding the mention of any PF bootleg called “Live” in the rest of the article, hopefully, they will reply.

    • Unfortunately, the seller of the Circus magazine issue never responded to me.

  3. John said:

    ok..Tanks….did Dub sold his whole collection?…
    There must be some ‘crazy’ bootleg collectors…maybe even someone from the inside… who would like to pay a lot of money for one of the rarest Wizardo’s. That 7′ single went for a lot of money…

    • I think he did. I noticed several transfers of TMOQ/Dub titles appeared on the torrent site for live recordings and I had wondered how they ended up there (obviously, in other hands now then Dub’s).

      I wonder if Ken’s Donovan LP I pictured here is worth something. I was offered it but would have to put up a medium amount first.

      • John said:

        the 7″ in mean is the Billy Wizard Nazi Love single..went up for sale for 184 Euro/ 250 USD.
        Some copy’s of this ‘low’ budget ‘Joke’ release were packed in the B.Toff album. One of the rarest vinyls ever. BTW Floyd’s Omayyad on blue vinyl sold for 235 euro’s.
        Question not related to this post. All my life i had a fascination for the Hendrix release ‘This Flyer’ and i had the chance to get it but price raised to high for me at last…can’t you make a topic of this rarity?…must be an very interesting read.

      • I have already shown and discussed that Wizardo 7″ on this blog. I don’t own a copy of the Hendrix mega rarity. In fact, until you had mentioned it, I had never even heard of it.

  4. Yesdays said:

    Great research, and much appreciation for the labor and effort. Interesting information, and slightly surprising that whomever was behind Dittolino actually produced an original release. Perhaps after the effort on the Floyd release, they found it much easier to knock off other Labels’ titles.

    • Thank you. Quite a bit of detective work involved and the final outcome went very much against what I wanted to believe but the facts are clear.

      Who knew that the very first Pink Floyd bootleg was on such a 2nd rate copy label? Too bad we know nothing about who was behind the label.

      • Yesdays said:

        True. I’ve always even thought the label name implied copying ….”Dittolino” and the word “ditto”

      • You know, I had not even thought of the name carrying that “message” within it.

  5. Yesdays said:

    The label image of the hand with raised little finger probably represents something in American Sign Language, but I don’t know what. Or if it’s even relevant or just some randomly selected image.

  6. William Miller said:

    I have a bootleg 2 disc vinyl set, Green and Blue, which I believe is from this show.
    It is a homemade/bootleg jacket and label taped to the jacket. It is from Trade Mark of Quality, and the picture is the band with the four bubbles to the right side. 1. Atom Heart Mother, 2. Atom Heart Mother, 3. Sing to Me – Cymbaline 4. A Saucerful of Secrets. I am wondering if this is from the October 23rd, 1970 show from Santa Monica, Ca.?
    Thanks for any input.

    • That’s the famous TMOQ 2804 double. Eventually, I will get around to discussing the TMOQ releases.

      • William Miller said:

        I just cleaned both records off with cleaning fluid and brush, and played them. They are amazing. I made a digital copy on my computer for posterity. Oh I am so happy to have these in my collection. I would love to find more bootleg live shows from Pink Floyd.

  7. Erik T said:

    I just bought this today at a record show for 40$, blue 8×11 Dittolin insert, better condition than I am used to seeing by the time I stumble upon these oldies. I briefly possessed this many years ago with no cover, not sure where that one ended up, but I was happy to grab this one, Atom Heart side 2 just finished a moment ago while typing this…

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: